#899 Darcia Narvaez & Gay Bradshaw: The Evolved Nest

00:00 Ricardo Lopes: Hello everybody. Welcome to a new episode of the Center. I'm your host as always Ricardo Loops. And today I'm joined by doctors Darcia Narvaez and Gay Bradshaw. Doctor Darcia Narvaez is a Professor of Psychology Merit at the University of Notre Dame. And Doctor G Bradshaw is a psychologist and Ecologist and director of the Kulu Center for Nonviolence. And today we're focusing on their book. They Evolved Nest Nature's Way of raising Children and creating connected communities. So, welcome to the show. It's a pleasure to have you both

00:36 Darcia Narvaez: on. Great to be here.

00:40 Ricardo Lopes: So I would like to start by asking what is exactly the premise of the book and what is an evolved next?

00:51 Darcia Narvaez: Well, every animal has a nest for uh raising its young. It's a developmental system that has uh been shaped through evolution to optimize normal development. And so these are uh just part of our adaptation as animals

01:11 Ricardo Lopes: a and are these uh species specific or are they or are there some commonalities across species?

01:21 Darcia Narvaez: There are commonalities and differences too? So it's uh that's what's fun about the book is that we note the similarities and then we point out, oh, look at how they do it, that this animal species does it this way and, and that kind of thing. So, uh it's just a um a way of raising the young that is about nurturance and meeting the needs of the young, the basic needs without delay, without, you know, depending on the species, what that means and to foster a sense of connectedness of safety, of security and of uh physiological, mental, psychological well being. Yeah, I think what the book does is really uh cements what has been known in uh Western science for hundreds of years actually. But in particular, the last decades when neuroscience has come to the fore and that's that all animals and now there's going to be including the data and theory and experimentation on plants, trees, et cetera that we all share the same um capacities and structures of the brain or of the system that gives us the capacity to think, feel love and dream and all of those things. So that's really been known, but it's been quite tacit and this particular book and, and our collaboration really has shown that there's a uh that we're all the same. It, it's rather than differences. The emphasis is on diversity. So when you're saying, is there species specific? Yes, there is just like there are among human cultures. And I think that that's probably the the the best way to uh uh readers and listeners to approach. This is saying oh, you know, we're all the same and yet we interact and we express our interactions and experiences where we live in our, our history in different ways, just as we look at different human cultures.

03:21 Ricardo Lopes: So there are very different aspects of child rearing and our uh individuals from the same family or community, establish relationships among themselves that you explore in the book. We don't have time here, of course, to get into all of them. But let's get perhaps into a few examples. So could you tell us perhaps how mothers and all mothers uh the role they play basically in, for example, African elephant societies?

03:54 Darcia Narvaez: Well, I'll start in Darsha, you can, you can fill in with things. Um African elephants are a prime example. They've been extremely well studied by science and um a lot of people have a lot of humans have a lot of affinity for them. Um Just to clarify alo mother, uh mother usually refers to the, the individual, what we would call the biological or the primary um caregiver that is female that would nurse, et cetera and give birth to an individual. Um Ala mothers are um other mothers and that is really the uh the norm among most human societies, traditionally, as well as uh animal um societies. So in the African elephants is that a baby is born from to a particular female elephant. And prior to the birth um that mother and the baby who's in the mother is immersed in this constellation of aloe mothers, other mothers, there are siblings, there's, you know, teenagers, there's cousins and babies and they're really this sort of organism that moves around and, and uh is there to support the mother prior to the birthing which takes two years in, in African elephants at gestation. And, and afterwards, so immediately when the baby is uh comes into the world from the mother's womb, uh he or she is literally surrounded by other elephants and family members and supporters. So you have seamless connection um of being in this community. And, and I think as we go on it really in the sense of looking at the evolved nest and child rearing and childbirthing, et cetera. The implicit, which really should be made more explicit is the um the need and the role of a community. So it's not just the mother, it's not just the father, it's really a community effort of which the focal element of course, is the birthing, the birthing mother or birthing parent and, and the child.

06:04 Ricardo Lopes: And of course, 00 yeah, go ahead. Sorry.

06:07 Darcia Narvaez: Yeah, it's interesting that our species uh we are apes. Uh We come from uh shared lineages with monkeys earlier and monkeys tend to share and have fowl mothering going on uh other nurturers and they share their babies around, but all the other apes except us uh keep uh it's just a mother that keeps her child because she doesn't trust the others. Uh And that they evolved then to just have mothers taking care of their young. But humans, we brought back the aloe mothering in it according to the evolutionary um ethology uh data. And that's really important for us because it actually shapes the brain to be much more flexible in social relations. Because if you're only with one mother, at least for humans, you tend to be much more rigid about how to get along with others because you only have practice with one really, you know, in the first years. So you want to have a set of, of nurturers, people who are spons. Uh It's good for the baby, but it's also good for a mother because babies, the evolved nest is, you know, rather demanding for, in terms of baby care. Uh We are like fetuses when we're born, fetuses of other animals for at least the 18 months, uh the 1st 18 months of uh of age. And so babies need to feel like they're still in the womb. Uh And that requires a lot of holding and moms just can't do it all. It's like what? So that's why our species perhaps went back to this collective uh child raising. And uh the anthropologists tell us that it actually shaped our big social brain to have cooperated child raising so that we could have uh others providing the many calories we need to be to build a big brain.

08:01 Ricardo Lopes: So you mentioned holding the baby there, what is the importance of physical contact for the baby? And also by the way for the mother or the other people who take care of

08:15 Darcia Narvaez: it. Well, in uh the neuroscience is telling us that the touch is central to helping establish uh well functioning uh biological systems like the vagus nerve, uh the 10th cranial nerve that innervates all the major systems of the body. And it's being uh it's also fostered by breastfeeding. Uh And um but touch is really important for that. And if you don't get the vagus nerve well established, you might have then health problems of various kinds later, you know, digestive issues, uh heart uh lung issues, brain seizures, that kind of thing. When the vagus nerve is malfunctioning, it's also the uh Oxytocin system. You want the endocrine system systems to be established properly and touch really has a lot to do with that. You wanna have that cuddle hormone that carries you forward. So you, you know, you actually like to be with people and like to touch them and feel comforted by that. So there's many different neurobiological aspects that are are um affected by touch. It's calming it. Uh OF course, is gonna have epigenetic effects, turning genes on and off that are gonna be oriented to good health and touch needs to be positive touch, not negative touch. We've got a lot of data now on how even spanking uh a, a child is like uh physical abuse or emotional abuse in its long term effects, making the individual more aggressive, less empathic and sensitive to others. I think even at, at a deeper level, when we look at um touch and we look at the aloe mothering or the alo parenting, um it really underscores that we're not these isolated units that essentially, yes, there is an individual that comes into the world, but that's like a piece of a bigger puzzle or a piece of the tapestry. And so what we see on the outside, you know what Darsha was explaining and then looking from the neural sciences perspective, what's happening on the inside from a science perspective is really a reflection of the reality of oneness and connection, even if it is in the case of the brown bear. That's a chapter in our book. Um There isn't an Aloe family per se, it's a mother bear uh who births the babies. And uh it's the hibernation den, which is really the sort of the equivalent of the Aloe mothering elephants, et cetera. But it's really the environment. And so in, in another way too, it erases the difference between social and ecological, those are just sort of different elements of the same theme. So there is this uh continuity, there is this coherence and, and we see that as expressed in terms of what Darsh is describing as, as touch and positive touch in that way. So, you know, it, it goes beyond the material. And the neuroscience is, is just one way of sort of keeping track of what those little pieces are from the perspective of what science in our culture, modern culture has relied on, which is dualism. But really, we're looking at non dual consciousness, we're really looking at this um coherence of oneness.

11:31 Ricardo Lopes: So we've mentioned mothers and mothers here. What about grandmothers and the other older people in the community? What is basically the role played by elders in human and nonhuman societies?

11:49 Darcia Narvaez: Well, they are part of the Aloe parents allo mothers, other nurturers, right? And uh there is a grandmother hypothesis that the reason that women, human, human um women uh exist to live beyond menopause is so that they can take care of the young because again, the young are young, need a lot of calories. And, and there's data showing that when you have the grandmother around the mother's mother, Children do better, they have uh more, you know, better health and so on. So that's uh kind of more of a anthropological view. The uh indigenous perspective of course, is that elders hold the wisdom of the community and they uh they are repositories and they have all the stories and experiences that help the community uh survive and thrive wherever they are. So it's very landscape specific. The language is from the landscape and uh they are essential for the well being of the community and their care of the very young Children is just ideal because they both are sort of still in tune or attuned to the UN manifest realm, the spiritual realm and, and they're not so focused on, you know, working and like, uh adults are so they really get along well and, and the grandparents are much more forgiving and less rigid and so on with the very young so that actually knits together the community. And when the native Americans uh in Canada and the US uh were um considered savage and the governments wanted to break down, make them, you know, kill the Indian and save the soul. They broke up those relationships, taking the Children away and it really devastated the communities because the elders didn't have the young as an anchor for themselves and the young didn't have that community to foster their culture and language and so on. So the intergenerational violence uh continues uh from those horrible genocidal uh treatments.

14:02 Ricardo Lopes: Uh And of course, when we talk about child rearing, we tend to focus a lot on the mother and sometimes also other females. But what about the father? Could you tell us perhaps about the example of Emperor Penguins and the role that fathers play there.

14:22 Darcia Narvaez: We love Emperor Penguins. Of course, I'll start off. Um Yeah, I think a lot of people, they've been popularized in movies I've heard and things like that. But the Emperor Penguins live in the Antarctic and they're around 4 ft high. And just a kind of a cartoon sketch of, of the community is that the mother, the mother and the father meet and they form partnerships and make love. And then the mother produces this amazing single egg and it's very, very cold there. The conditions are very, very harsh. And so she eventually lays the egg and is essentially when she does that, it's almost immediately passed to the father who is um now receives the egg and immediately puts it under his feathers in this pouch. And the purpose of that is because the the extreme cold there, the wind chill factors makes it even greater and he takes care of the egg while the egg is becoming a baby and the mothers um they live in a colony, I mean, there's all these individual pairs and different relationships but they are within a, a community. Uh It's a colony and the mothers essentially all leave at that time, they birth roughly probably at the same time and they go up to a couple kom a couple 100 kilometers away off the ice and into the ocean. And that is to replenish because all of their energies has been diverted and, and directed toward creating the egg and all the nutrients and psychological, emotional everything has. So this is going off to replenish and they spend a couple of months there diving and looking for fish and, and uh resting up and replenishing in the meanwhile, the fathers are gathering, they each have an egg. Uh AND again, it's very protected and they gather in what's called a huddle, which are a group of, of uh fathers. And they do that. Um YOU know, well, from a physical perspective is that because it retains warmth, it becomes this kind of thermal unit by which the temperatures of the egg can be kept perfect, not too hot, not too cold. And in order to do that, they actually move, you know, in, in a very choreographed way to the interior of the huddle and then some go to the outside. So again, this is this co ordination. Again, this is a community so that there's a baby, but it's a community and then the baby is born and at that time, the mother returns and essentially, then the fathers go off and they are also depleted. Um Some have lost half their weight, they go to the ocean and replete and then they come back and it's a very emotional and very intense time because typically the colonies are in the thousands and they have to find their mother and their wife and child. So, um doctor Andre who's in France is a researcher talks very beautifully about this that um they're very mindful. So again, we're talking about a community and this is an important point because they're all coordinating together. There isn't this notion of competition there isn't this notion of me first or anything like that. Um They give particular calls, they each have their own idiolect call. And if, if the guy next to you is calling for his, they wait for, until that person can call and identify. So eventually they're all uh brought back together and they uh form a, a family and it's very much, um the term is co parenting. So, so there's a very much coordinate at many scales between the mother and the father, including the egg and then the mothers with the mothers and the fathers with the fathers. And then again, as the baby matures, then there is a crash uh uh uh uh you know, a kind of a coalescing of all the young chicks, um you know, kind of like a kindergarten or whatever, but they're all together, there really isn't any kind of separation. And the other idea is that connection is with community nonparent and, and with each other in that way. So it, again, this is just an example and we have examples uh in the chapter on gray wolves, which is different, but it, there does show the participation of the, of the um of, of males and same with the elephants. So I'll just put that in real quick is um that uh the baby elephants in Africa, they grow up in that Natal family we described and then when they're, you know, 1112, 13, they are either pushed out or they go out and they join, um, uh, older males, what they call an all bull group or area. And they spend at least 15 years, um, in association with this bull society, male society. So there is not that kind of segregation that we see. We see this very much cooper and I would say just not even a division. It's just everyone has the same goal and they work with each other to make it work in the best way possible for the babies and each other.

19:30 Ricardo Lopes: Mhm uh And so I guess that one very important topic also to talk about here is attachment theory. I guess it is very important in the context of your book as was originally developed, I think by Doctor John Bulby and then over the decades further developed by other researchers and scholar. So what would you say are perhaps some of the main insights that we got from attachment theory when it comes to having a better understanding of perhaps the social needs that we and other species might have and how we establish social relationships with other people.

20:17 Darcia Narvaez: I'll start uh attachment has to do with relation, relational belonging, essentially and connectedness and maintaining that um those years when the brain is growing so quickly that, you know, it's, it's setting up its worldview, its sense of self, its sense of relationships. And so uh the uh attachment promoting care which is evolve nest, then establish this this deep sense of security and safety and relation and, and skilled, knowing how to, you know, stop and start relationships or conversations and recognizing who's trustworthy and um just being able to maintain relationships across time, babies have to learn a lot of non verbal skills before language comes about around age two. And a lot of that is this relational kind of socio emotional intelligence. So it has also to do with your own uh understanding of your own emotions and conveying those in ways that are appropriate um with your uh relational experience in the moment?

21:26 Ricardo Lopes: A and is it uh just about, or is it even primarily about the mother infant diet or does it go beyond that? Because I mean, at least when we commonly hear about attachment and attachment theory, it's it tends to be mostly focused on the mother, sometimes the other caregivers like the father, for example, but people do not at least commonly talk about other kinds of social relationships. But if I understand it correctly, it goes beyond that.

22:02 Darcia Narvaez: Right. Right. So in Western civilization, which has become patriarchal uh and emphasize the nuclear family, all you have is mom, dad and the Children, right, the emphasis of Western scholars has been to look at the mother child diet because that's the framework, the assumption that that's normal, but that isn't normal for our species. Our species raised Children in multiple aged, multi gender groups. And so really the way I look at it is, mother provides the first attachment and then she's the bridge to the attachment to everyone else around. So that even in some uh societies, I think the booty, the the infant after a few days is passed around uh to the group, uh whatever size it is and the baby starts to get a sense of different smells and different uh patterns of movement and gets comfortable with all that and and builds a really a a very a fabric supportive care around them. So they, and they become attached even more than just to people, to the natural world, around them, to the animals and plants that they live with and uh interact with. And so it's much broader, this attachment, this sense of being belonging and connected and relationally um kind of supported than what the Westerners uh are studying and talk about.

23:29 Ricardo Lopes: But what are essentially the factors that lead to the development of a secure attachment style and not uh let's say non secure attachment style that could be an anxious, violent or disorganized kind of attachment style,

23:49 Darcia Narvaez: but it has to do with the predictability of the caregivers. So providing the evolved nest, so providing breastfeeding when the child signals they want uh touch. When in our ancestral context, nomadic foraging communities, babies aren't put down, they're carried everywhere because they know uh they had intuitions about how that baby is so vulnerable and required such uh intensive care of uh to develop well. And so the baby is having um relationships that are um always responsive and nurturing in terms of touch and just listening and emotionally honest and delightful. And in those situations, the baby learns that everything is, you know, you can predict it and um I'm safe and these people are trustworthy and all that insecure attachment comes from un inconsistent care. Uh We, and we uh see that not in nomadic foraging communities unless there's been some horrible accident or something. Uh But in modern culture where babies are kind of, you know, more like possessions than objects of control. And uh when babies are left alone or left to cry, uh and isolated physically, they're not gonna feel that sense of belonging and safety and security. And so we unfortunately have cultural myths about how important it is to make babies independent, you know, and oh, you're gonna spoil the baby if you pick them up too much and all these crazy ideas uh that actually undermine health for the long term. So when you can, when you uh build an insecure attachment, which could be anxious or avoiding depending on uh exactly when and how you were treated when you're insecure you, uh it means your neurobiology has been shaped to be, you know, kind of disregulation and you don't maybe know how to make friends and you don't know how to maintain a friendship and you don't know how to recognize a trustworthy relationship. And so it gets you into all sorts of trouble. Uh PROF uh professors tend to have avoidant attachment, which is this detached way of looking at things not emotionally available because that's how, what they experienced as babies. And so it's very easy to go in the Ivory Tower and make up stuff, you know, and then apply your, you know, your little model to the world. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but you get a publication and, you know, you're not committed and emotionally attuned. Um And so we've created a world where we reward that kind of um avoid an attachment uh with, you know, status and such and that's destructive to the planet. It's destructive to nature because we're not relationally attuned with our emotions, with our commitment, with our moral commitment to the well being of everyone human and nonhuman around us. And, and I would say that um John boldly really made quite a contribution because he really made visible, the invisible, which was this notion of the importance of relationship and the quality of relationship. But within that, again, this is not a criticism because that's a it's a step in the evolution of the western cultures way of looking at things. You're still having one thing attaching to another thing. And when you look through the lens of nonhuman nature, everyone's attached, there is no attachment, there are no strings, it's all one big soup. So quote, unquote, attachment is just the way animals live. And so that the, the specificity of it, for example, the, the importance of the mother with the nursing, the way Darsha was discussing it or the, the, the way that the, the passing of the egg with the father, those are important elements, but it's all everyone's attached. It's the non attachment that um Darsha was talking about in the sense of some kind of perturbation, some kind of, you know, causing a gap or schism between you and me. Um OR you know, the baby and the parent or whatever that is, that's the anomaly. And, and essentially so, like I said, when we look from through the baseline of nonhuman nature, there is no attachment. It's we, we are all attached and that's really what we're coming back into. And um and, and the work that we've done together is really trying to bridge that and, and move us into this paradigm of the baseline of we're all attached. We, we are, we just are in that way. So the evolved nest is about meeting basic needs, everyone's basic needs. There's no argument about meeting the needs that you just provide and that and nature's gift economy is that way too. You take the fruit and then you, you, your waste becomes some other animals uh food. And uh it's just this ongoing cycle of giving and taking and giving without uh a sense of disconnection, right? You're just in it like uh gay said in a soup and what the Western world has done is just divided and disconnected all over the place, disconnected body from mind, uh spirit from uh humanity. Uh It's just a, a big mess of division that I, we hope our book will help people realize that that's not the way we evolved to be and that's not helpful for the planet. And then, yeah, go ahead and just real quick. I think what's a challenge? And we're hoping as Darsha said that the book will help, you know, support people make that shift is essentially from one paradigm of dualism. We can call it dualism pieces. You know, all the pieces. You me, they, we all those things into oneness into non dualism. And it really takes um either an experience or a leap of faith. But you, you, you at one point, you have to kind of jump in, you have to jump in and say, do we see ourselves as you and me and separate that we're putting together an assemblage? Or are we just one of which I'm an expression? You're an expression of a part, et cetera. And that's really what this is an example of, of, of um encouraging people to jump into that new view because then the other pieces like the elements of the evolved nest, they just kind of come out naturally. I mean, there may be some questions like, well, how do I do this? How do I transition, you know, I don't have a grandparent or whatever, but then solutions start to come up. OK? We don't have grandparents, but we have our neighbors. Let's start to talk with our neighbors and create this kind of um you know, mosaic um that, that, that moves into to oneness. So we're talking about in inter being, right? We are all uh you are me, I am you, it's uh there's no real separation. We're just, you know, little uh pieces of the whole, the implicate order and our uh ability to de differentiate ourselves to see how we're alike, to see how we are connected. And all in this flowing dynamic universe is really our aim here and the animal uh images and how they, they know this, right? We have so much to learn from our animal kin. Uh And so we hope that's what the book will. Uh

31:29 Ricardo Lopes: But at a certain point there, you mentioned uh needs uh what are needs exactly or perhaps a better question is where do they come from exactly what constitutes a child's in need? And I mean, since uh of course, in the book, we explore other nonhuman species, uh does that mean that perhaps some of the of these needs are quote unquote, hard wired or uh are there are Children perhaps at least to some extent responsive to the eco uh the ecology they develop in uh when it comes to developing their own specific

32:12 Darcia Narvaez: needs? Well, the way I look at it and gay can uh add her perception. Uh THE way I look at it is that we're animals. And so we all need some nourishment. We need shelter, we need protection, we need warmth, uh or else we die, right? But, but we're also mammals, social mammals and we need affection to grow. Well, we need the touch, right? We need play to grow well, so basic needs to grow the optimal uh kind of member of the species. That's what you want to meet. And that's we have to identify uh basic needs by what leads to optimality. And we also are humans, we need to have meaning uh and make meaning. And so the stories that our culture tells us, guides our behavior and guides our, our desires, our experiences build our desires, right? To be close and affectionate or distant and detached, right? Depending on the kind of early experience you had. So basic needs really lead to optimization of the individual and the community. Now, uh Maslow has had his hierarchy of needs. He learned he got inspired by the Blackfoot nation, the six AA. And unfortunately, he turned it upside down because for the Blackfoot self actualization is fundamental in primary and that's what the evolved N does. For each individual. It fosters your uniqueness, you can unfold and blossom because all your needs are being mad and everybody loves you and you feel like you belong. But he put that as the end point, the end point for the Blackfoot is cultural perpetuity community well being so that the culture will, and that means the bio community that in, in which you're entangled is going to live into the future seven generations, right? And we, you know, uh Maslow got very individualistic, which is the western way instead of this communal orientation that, that understands that we don't become our best selves unless we have those basic needs met all along the way throughout life.

34:23 Ricardo Lopes: Mhm A and what I, in what ways can early life experiences have far reaching impacts?

34:35 Darcia Narvaez: Well, that's what I write about uh quite a bit uh in terms of morality. Um BUT it's also social capacities. So uh as I mentioned earlier, within secure attachment, you're kind of uh hampered, you have a uh inability unless you heal it later with some interventions. Uh YOU get along that well with others. Now, my work looks at how our early experience, if you stress a baby so that they learn to be uh threat, reactive, stress, reactive because they've been stressed so much that stress response is easily triggered, that's gonna shape how they act with others and their moral decisions. What's right? What's wrong? And in the moment, they'll be more likely to feel afraid and brace against others, brace against life instead of being open hearted and flexible, you know, and attuned. So, uh that's gonna affect how they think about the world, they'll be more likely to have, uh, scripted, rigid ideas of black and white up and down, more oriented to dominance hierarchies. You know, either you're either up or you're down, you're either a winner or a loser, that kind of orientation. And each moment they can bring, uh, if they feel unsafe in the moment they're gonna go into that mode and their, their morality then is gonna affect everyone else. I mean, we're seeing far reaching, we're experiencing the far reaching effects of, of early development. I mean, if you look at the history of, of humanity over the last, we'll just say 102 100 years, uh it has been violent, it has been breaking down, it's been um insecure attachment, generating writ large and none of that has been processed. So when you have someone who is severely traumatized um through genocide, through poverty, through the industrial technological development, which has gotten intensified. Um THE, the they're, they're thrust back into it and there really is an Ame or of there isn't a um a healing, a receiving healing community. So even though a baby is brought up in a certain that's obviously very critical. But the community, in other words, the culture has to be one that uh supports that individual. And if they're not, if they're the same thing in a sense, you just continue on this very, very destructive path, which is what we see right now. And unfortunately, in the nonhuman world. That's why you're seeing PTSD complex ptsd just to use technical terms among African elephants never existed. Nothing like that. The orc is off Spain, nothing like that. And, and so, you know, we, we can just analyze it from a very narrow view of neuropsychology. But essentially, you're seeing this profound ricocheting of, you know, one child experiencing insecure attachment and then it perpetuating, perpetuating, perpetuating without any kind of balance in terms of healing that individual. And there are individual cultures, human cultures that have a very different way when an individual uh for whatever reason, um sort of steps out the bounds of morality, what do they do? They do not expel that individual, they gather around, they absorb, it's inclusive. And again, what Darsha was talking is about that inter being, it's our responsibility for that person, that individual. And so that's, you know, these are elements of socialism, right? Where it has to do with the fact of that um your poverty or my poverty or their poverty or their problem, quote unquote is my problem. So it's a very different what this is really saying is is that in order for us to uh heal, in order for us to bring cohesion and well being back on the planet within our species and then the entire planet, which is made chaotic by our human behavior is that we have to be inclusive. We don't shut them away in prisons, we don't stick people away and get rid of them, we bring them back and a number of the indigenous societies, that's how they function. They, they, they sort of, you know, absorb that individual. And again, that's another lesson of the evolved nest. It's not just a person with a mother or with a father, it's um, it's an organism. So, really, although we talk a lot about child raising and things like that, it really comes down to, um, revitalizing those elements of the evolved nest which are in, I think chapter 10 or whatever, they're sort of listed. I mean, they're not, they're just kind of pointers to something which is much of a, but that's really the focus is that, that's how we can start on the path, that's how we can break the cycle.

39:31 Ricardo Lopes: Mhm. Uh And do you think that perhaps some of the issues that we are experiencing in industrialized and post industrial societies nowadays have to do with some of these more individualistic values that we have where people are raised to think that perhaps they shouldn't uh try to depend so much on others and there's not so much the sense of community. Uh I mean, uh also because I guess that, uh uh looking at our own evolutionary history and, uh, and other species, we are very much dependent on others. And I mean, that idea that the, just an isolated individual, uh and, uh, and the, if it's not that then you're like spoiled or something like that and you are just completely over dependent on others. I mean, that's uh incorrect.

40:33 Darcia Narvaez: That's it. It's particularly strong here, I think in the United States. Um, AND I think it's unfortunately spread but it, it's considered something negative or bad to say I need, I need to something, you know, can you help me out? Um, THERE'S a lot of shame associated with that and for the rejection. So you get this spiral. So, you know, to show kind of vulnerability is really considered to be something is used on as, as, as prey. We have a predator, we've developed a predatorial culture. So when there's someone who is, who shows vulnerability, um they're rejected and they are uh preyed upon in, in that way. So again, the elements of the that are, you know, sort of itemized in the evolved nest to highlight certain things really are um paths and principles which can really help our culture. Um Our species return to, I would believe it's, it's natural goodness where you want to call it in in that way. So I can add a little bit more um when we under care for chil young Children. So don't provide the nest, we're undermining the development of the right hemisphere, the right hemisphere is scheduled to grow more rapidly. And it's the part of our brain that is oriented to dynamic relationships and living things and has a sense of uh it's the seed of our self-regulation initially and empathy and higher consciousness. And when we under care for Children, that's uh you know, not developed so well. And then they have to rely on the survival systems that are innate so that dominance, uh submission and territoriality and rivalry things. Um PART of the reptilian brain, right? Um I mean, it's insulting reptiles but um and then we send them to school and train their left brain. Left brain is all in the ego consciousness. It thinks it knows everything, it doesn't know very much. It's good at linear, you know, kind of analysis, but it can't deal with dynamism, it likes static objects, things it can measure, you know, and so the western world has been taken over by the left hemisphere and this is Ian mcgilchrist Point and is running us, of course into the grave because we forgot how to develop, how to foster an integrated brain. Both halves are really important. But we have now put ourselves in the hands of this very detached robotic part of ourselves and guided by survival systems, you know. So predation is part of the left brain's orientation, manipulation of the world. Yeah. And as, as Dar brought up the, the, the notion of the reptilian brain is kind of an artifact from science that reptiles, uh tortoises and alligators, rattlesnakes, they all have the same brain that we do and they all show uh the same what we would call prosocial behavior, they care for each other's young. They are non a grass, um, they're very, um, community oriented and, um, they don't strike in violence except, you know, when it's absolutely necessary. And so, you know, those are the kinds of myths which is also, have come along with, this is, um, uh, separating ourselves. Oh, we're not like them now, whether that's another animal or whether it's another human and valor these aspects that, of the left brain in the, in the language of neuroscience that Darsh has been talking about and that's very, very deep conditioning. So in the case of, you know, that this is this whole, you know, schooling the world, you know, even if you brought up, you know, um and, and I can have personal experience growing if you grow up in an evolved nest kind of situation, but you're shunted into this conveyor belt of um you know, II I it's kind of a sociopathy, you know, where you're basically punished in various ways and not just physical but socially, all those things you're conditioned into letting go of the right brain into uh into sort of squelching these wonderful and beautiful feelings inside that are natural, which seed and nurture those uh um within those that you, that you meet. So we're, we're put into this conveyor belt and then that becomes a matter of quote unquote survival. If you're not like this, then you don't belong and you're excluded. And unfortunately, it's evolved to such a system where it really comes down to, are you with us or are you against us? We see that in political systems, we see that in social systems, et cetera. So it's really this move to um you know, taking back our wholeness, taking back ourselves. And in that, which is critical is understanding that nonhumans, that's why it works for billions of years. That's why nature has worked for billions of years. And so we can say, OK, I'm, I'm gonna side with them. I'm gonna side with nature. I wanna be more like nature, I wanna be more like the penguins. I wanna be more like the wolves and by making that kind of solidarity, that kind of commitment saying those are my people, these are my kin then that in itself opens up an incredible amount of the life force that really is responsible for creating this incredible planet that we live on.

46:19 Ricardo Lopes: Mhm So I would like to ask you now, since in the book, you talk a lot about what we can learn from traditional societies, indigenous societies, for example, uh because in modern industrialized and post industrial societies, even with the issues that we have. Uh SOME of them we've talked here about today, um we still have many positive things like for example, some very positive technological advancements that make our lives better and easier. So I would like to ask you, how do you think we could perhaps strike a balance here between some of the positives of those more traditional societies without perhaps having to ditch, uh, the other positive things that we have in our, uh, industrialized societies.

47:27 Darcia Narvaez: Well, I think, um, it's a tough question actually, but there are traditional societies who weren't nomadic foragers who have lived with localization where they have their, you know, they raise their own food, they, they have their own energy. They have, they use the cycle of, of life on their farms, right? So the waste from the animals or themselves goes into the garden and grows as the natural uh fertilizer. So they, they're not poisoning the the soil, they're not dishonoring uh this the earth and they have ways of being that are tuned in to the well being of that landscape right there. So I think we have to go back to these small kind of communities and then perhaps with the renewable energies, we can still maintain zoom conversations, for example, those are nice.

48:20 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, I would like to keep having

48:23 Darcia Narvaez: those. Yeah, but we don't need so much. I mean, there's so much wastefulness um in our because it makes money for people and it raises the G GDP, right? The more you waste. So we have to get back to understanding that we are relational uh beings and every um plant animal river mountain is part of our kin and we need to be concerned about their well being and not be greedy for what we think we need. But you know, the early under care is gonna lead us to be more greedy and trying to make up for that hole we have in our heart from disconnection from uh disrespected um early childhood. So we have to kind of work at multiple levels. Bring back the evolved n for the young re nest, the adults get them calmed down, get them more tuned in to the the cosmos, to their relational responsibilities, feel more at ease and at peace being a member of the earth community.

49:28 Ricardo Lopes: Uh And so perhaps just one last question and I have asked you about traditional society. So when comparing ourselves to other animals and we've gone through several examples here today. Uh WHAT do you think we can learn from them that would be applicable to human societies?

49:52 Darcia Narvaez: Well, I'll continue with what Darsha said. Um I don't think we need any of the things that we call um human achievements. I mean, all of those things are prosthetics that are substitutes for what the evolved nest and the rest of nature lives by and provides. Um I mean, zoom. Zoom is wonderful because we get to meet you and each other and, and things like that. But uh if we were living together and whatever, we, we don't need that. I mean, I may not, I may have never met you. Um WHICH would be sad, but at the same time, how sad. I mean, in other words, they, what we, there's so much loss that is uh associated with the things that we think have gained us. I see these as this is their intermediate steps and that we need to give up those kinds of things. They, they really, they keep us, I mean, right now, they provide an incredible ability to kind of revitalize and communicate and kind of get back to where we are. But none of the rest of the other species need what we say we need and they do very well and they're very happy. So all the things we cherish, like wellness and good relationships and security and peace. That's what the animal world has without modern humans. And so if it really gets down to that, I think we just really need to sort of say, well, we don't really need all these things. These are just transitional objects that move us into what Darsha was talking about. Um AND life will be much better. So II, I think it's not just um I think, I think we need to aspire to be who the animals are and who the trees and the plants are. And those with those with insecure attachment tend to be quite restless. They don't feel at ease and because of course, they didn't, they didn't get their needs met. And so they, they're anxious, you know, where am I gonna get them met? And so you try all these things, addictions and various things to try to calm down. Um, BUT if, if we provide the evolved nest or when we have nested lives, we have a fullness of now. We feel connected to everything now and we see all the dynamism and we can hardly, you know, look away from the beauty of, of life. Whereas when you have an under cared for, under nested person, they're worried and they're, you're thinking about the past. Oh, I did all that wrong and they're depressed about that and then they're worried about the future and all and they're hardly in the present moment because they didn't get enough practice for it. They couldn't, I mean, it was too painful to be in the present moment. They had to dissociate when they were left alone to cry or left alone, abandoned in some way. Uh So we have to get back to the fullness of right hemisphere functioning, the full integrated brain where we feel uh this life is so beautiful and we are all in it together and let's, you know, sing, let's dance, let's play together. That's what we aim for. That's, that's the flourishing human community that we um see as our promise, we can still return to that. Uh And so that's what we aim for. And I think we see that um individually, I think everyone, why it feels so nice to be in nature. Hey, there, there are no TV. S there are no iphones. Um, JUST being in nature and then also just things like, um, I mean, not everyone but a lot of people have fun having a picnic or have fun going camping. Well, that's because there's not all those things. Right. And, and there is that so that those are sort of touch points and, and indicators that that's our natural, that's our natural path, that's our natural inclination to well being and peace. So we can all go find a sit spot near us where we can tune into nature and go there regularly and that'll open up our senses. We can all uh be um activists for our local rivers, creeks, forests, um trees, animals, native animals. Uh YOU know, it just get out there and be committed to the bio community that you're a member of.

54:13 Ricardo Lopes: Great. So I think that's a great message to end the interview on. Uh THE book is again the Evolved Nest Nature's way of raising Children and creating connected communities. I'm leaving a link to it in the description box of this interview. Uh And by the way, would you like to tell people apart from the book where they can find you and your work on the internet?

54:40 Darcia Narvaez: Uh The Evolve Nest Evolve nest.org. And we have a movie on this uh that's based in this book. It's uh eight minutes long there. And there's a couple other movies too that you can watch free. No, it's a nonprofit So there's different tools for re nesting. We have an evolved nest curriculum you can do on your own to learn about and then apply evolve nest principles and our um website where there's material as well as uh Kulas. It's www dot Kos K er Ul os.org and that's the Kula Center for Nonviolence. So theres information there.

55:24 Ricardo Lopes: Great. So I'm adding that also to the description of the interview and doctors Narvaez and Bradshaw. Thank you so much again for taking the time to come on the show. It's been a real pleasure to talk to

55:36 Darcia Narvaez: you. Thank you, Ricardo. Thank you so much. Good to see you.

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